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| paroneayea | joar: I definitely share your preference | 01:12 |
|---|---|---|
| paroneayea | since I'm not sure the bindings are well written for ledger though I wonder if a wrapper library that uses suboptimal code now which can be improved later might be the best though :) | 01:12 |
| bkuhnIdle | maybe | 01:46 |
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| paroneayea | joar: anyway, I trust you/bkuhn to make the right calls, hope I don't sound like I'm pushing anything | 02:24 |
| paroneayea | fully aware I'm commentary from the peanut gallery | 02:24 |
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| joar | OpenERP seems promising, I just need to navigate launchpad | 16:02 |
| joar | trying to find the source code | 16:02 |
| bkuhn | joar: I'm dubious about openERP myself. | 16:06 |
| bkuhn | I tried it for use for Conservancy for three months once back in 2008 (before I solidifed on Ledger) | 16:07 |
| bkuhn | it was highly problematic | 16:07 |
| bkuhn | for various reasons. | 16:07 |
| bkuhn | joar: Also, it's a proprietary relicensed codebase. | 16:07 |
| bkuhn | I think if we were to go with OpenERP, we'd want to prefer Tryton, which is a fork of OpenERP | 16:07 |
| joar | their codebase seems GPL, but it's hard to get an overview | 16:09 |
| joar | I'll look into it | 16:09 |
| bkuhn | joar: I think you'll find it's completely copyrighted by one entity. | 16:15 |
| bkuhn | and they require copyright assignment on patches, IIRC | 16:15 |
| joar | bkuhn: I'll quote this discussion in the article and move on to tryton. | 17:01 |
| bkuhn | ok. | 17:01 |
| bkuhn | joar: please note that it's entirely possible OpenERP changed their policies at some point. It's unlikely, but it's possible. | 17:02 |
| joar | I've been trying to find out details | 17:02 |
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| joar | asked in the #openobject channel, no reply this far | 17:02 |
| joar | I'll include your disclaimer | 17:02 |
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| joar | K-lined? that's drastic | 17:06 |
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| joar | Tryton looks promising | 19:55 |
| bkuhn | joar: what about it looks that way? | 20:06 |
| joar | It's well-documented, written in python, modular | 20:07 |
| joar | it also has a server-client setup | 20:07 |
| bkuhn | Ok. One of the ideas I had was that perhaps the Ledger stuff could be used as a storage engine for some other existing UI code. | 20:08 |
| bkuhn | Might Tryton be adaptable in that way do you think? | 20:08 |
| joar | It depends | 20:08 |
| joar | I've got to look at the transport protocol used for server-client communication in tryton | 20:08 |
| joar | my initial judgement is that it might be cumbersome | 20:09 |
| bkuhn | hmm. | 20:17 |
| joar | bkuhn: I think that it might be easier than that | 20:18 |
| bkuhn | joar: Anyway, the main problems I had with OpenERP related to specific UseCases that I will write up. | 20:18 |
| bkuhn | And we can see if those UseCases have gotten better | 20:18 |
| joar | bkuhn: Yeah | 20:18 |
| bkuhn | I'm somewhat targeting this weekend to sprint through and write up my use cases and to finish documenting Conservancy's Ledger CLI setup | 20:19 |
| joar | infrastructure-wise, tryton looks like a solid bunch. | 20:19 |
| bkuhn | I was skeptical about them when they got started. | 20:19 |
| bkuhn | They forked out of anger at OpenERP.... forks made out of anger often fail. | 20:20 |
| bkuhn | but they've been going for years now. | 20:20 |
| bkuhn | community seems healthy, diverse, etc? | 20:20 |
| joar | IRC channel seems friendly | 20:22 |
| joar | http://www.ohloh.net/p/tryton | 20:23 |
| joar | commit peaks every 6 months | 20:26 |
| joar | that's odd | 20:26 |
| bkuhn | joar: maybe that's a merge they do of OpenERP. | 20:28 |
| bkuhn | ? | 20:28 |
| bkuhn | Funny thing about projects like this: | 20:28 |
| bkuhn | OpenERP won't take their code likely b/c of copyright assignment requirement (for proprietary relicensing) | 20:29 |
| bkuhn | but they can take all openERP's code | 20:29 |
| joar | :) | 20:29 |
| bkuhn | It's a cool outcome really | 20:30 |
| bkuhn | But if that's really what's happening, it means they probably don't do much coding themselves? | 20:31 |
| joar | there's a lot of commits from ced@b2ck.com, which I suspect is cedk in the #tryton channel. | 20:32 |
| bkuhn | cedk is the one I talked to about the fork. | 20:32 |
| joar | 11 | 20:33 |
| joar | oops | 20:33 |
| joar | Tryton has a release cycle of 6 months | 20:33 |
| bkuhn | And about fixing their copyright notices after their fork. | 20:33 |
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| pokoli | joar: could I ask you in which phase is the conservancy project? | 21:01 |
| joar | pokoli: It's in the evaluation phase | 21:04 |
| joar | and we'll probably be evaluating 1-2 weeks further AFAICT (bkuhn?) | 21:05 |
| pokoli | joar: I'm wondering why you don't have erpnext | 21:05 |
| bkuhn | pokoli: we don't have it listed because you haven't added it to the Wiki yet. :) | 21:06 |
| joar | pokoli: I was not aware of it before :) | 21:06 |
| bkuhn | It seems to be designed for manufacturing though... few non-profits do that. :) | 21:07 |
| pokoli | bkuhn: just added that :) | 21:08 |
| bkuhn | Also, https://erpnext.com/subscription-agreement is a rather odd thing to have on a Free Software project's website. | 21:08 |
| pokoli | I must say i prefer tryton, but it's an option to have in mind. I have not explored it so much, so would be great if you can review it :) | 21:08 |
| bkuhn | Is there a site for the Free Software project itself (unrelated to the for-profit company that released it)? | 21:08 |
| pokoli | bkuhn: I don't know. Maybe the github page | 21:10 |
| joar | https://erpnext.com/open-source | 21:10 |
| bkuhn | hrm, it's not a good sign of a Free Software project if the company and the project are that far intertwined. | 21:10 |
| bkuhn | OpenERP of course has the same problem. | 21:10 |
| bkuhn | (and probably worse problems as well :) | 21:10 |
| pokoli | bkuhn: do you know about OpenERP migrations' | 21:11 |
| pokoli | ? | 21:11 |
| bkuhn | No. | 21:11 |
| pokoli | bkuhn: I image you droped OpenBravo for its license, didn't you? | 21:11 |
| bkuhn | pokoli: I don't think we "dropped" anything yet. | 21:12 |
| bkuhn | In fact, I haven't gone through my old emails and merged that into the wiki yet, even. | 21:12 |
| joar | I have dropped some applications I found in the wikipedia listing initially because they didn't support double-entry or were personal use applications | 21:13 |
| joar | or didn't support accounting at all | 21:13 |
| pokoli | joar: did you have a look on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ERP_software_packages ??? | 21:13 |
| joar | (general ledger accounting) | 21:13 |
| bkuhn | I can't even easily find on OpenBravo's website where the Free Software project is. | 21:13 |
| joar | pokoli: I've mainly looked at the Accounting software listing. | 21:13 |
| joar | http://www.openbravo.com/community | 21:13 |
| bkuhn | joar: I started clicking on that. | 21:14 |
| bkuhn | It started asking me questions | 21:14 |
| bkuhn | I frankly have no patience if I can't get to a clone URL in a matter of 30 seconds on a website, it's a really really bad sign. | 21:14 |
| joar | haha | 21:14 |
| bkuhn | I mean, it really is. | 21:15 |
| bkuhn | it shows clearly that the project *isn't* interested in developer engagement. | 21:15 |
| bkuhn | I don't mind if it's relegated to a "For developers" link | 21:15 |
| bkuhn | but | 21:15 |
| bkuhn | I clicked on: | 21:15 |
| bkuhn | http://www.openbravo.com/community | 21:15 |
| joar | Yes, trying to find anything other than promotional material on that page was hard. | 21:15 |
| bkuhn | Then got: http://www.openbravo.com/get-started-free-download | 21:15 |
| bkuhn | then I chose "I want to be involved as a developer" | 21:15 |
| bkuhn | Then I got: http://www.openbravo.com/get-started-free-download/openbravo-3-developers | 21:15 |
| bkuhn | which is asking me more silly questions | 21:15 |
| bkuhn | I've told it: I AM A DEVELOPER | 21:16 |
| joar | http://wiki.openbravo.com/wiki/Installation | 21:16 |
| bkuhn | once the website knows that a clone URL should be obvious to find | 21:16 |
| bkuhn | Again, I don't mind if the developer link is hidden. | 21:16 |
| pokoli | bkuhn: openbravo has closed modules | 21:16 |
| pokoli | is like double licence on the ERP | 21:16 |
| bkuhn | pokoli: well, perhaps it's forkable. What's the main license? | 21:16 |
| joar | and that wiki page has all the links in itself | 21:16 |
| bkuhn | pokoli: I think you mean proprietary relicensing | 21:16 |
| bkuhn | joar: you have more patience to me. | 21:16 |
| bkuhn | s/to me/than me/ :) | 21:16 |
| joar | it's basically saying "we're open-source, but don't use the open source, pay us." | 21:17 |
| pokoli | joar: I think it's good to have a look on ERP software, as ERP normally involve accounting :D | 21:17 |
| joar | it's dark design patterns all over the place | 21:17 |
| bkuhn | :) | 21:17 |
| bkuhn | pokoli is probably right about looking at ERP, although I've found many times, ERP systems have an accounting module almost as an afterthought. | 21:17 |
| bkuhn | For example, when I first used OpenERP, I just wanted to do accounting to start. | 21:17 |
| pokoli | bkuhn: its a custom license, from wikipedia: 1.^ The Openbravo Public License (OBPL) is based on the Mozilla Public License (MPL).[1] | 21:17 |
| bkuhn | it didn't want to let me. | 21:17 |
| bkuhn | pokoli: oh, if it's not on FSF's Free Software license list, and on OSI's approved list, we will definitely reject it. | 21:18 |
| pokoli | bkuhn: because OpenERP is not as modular as you would | 21:18 |
| pokoli | bkuhn: it tries to integrate all the process | 21:18 |
| bkuhn | Yeah, that's a huge problem. | 21:19 |
| bkuhn | I'm not against integration. | 21:19 |
| bkuhn | But here's a classic use case (which I will write up): | 21:19 |
| bkuhn | For a non-profit, it's *VERY* common to generate an invoice that may not get paid. | 21:19 |
| bkuhn | Under GAAP accounting rules, you can't accrue that, because you don't have a good-faith belief it will be paid. | 21:19 |
| bkuhn | so | 21:19 |
| bkuhn | you have to generate an invoice that never gets accrued | 21:19 |
| bkuhn | OpenERP would NOT let me do that | 21:19 |
| bkuhn | it outright refused | 21:19 |
| bkuhn | I started working on a patch to have it let me do that. | 21:19 |
| bkuhn | Two days later, I decided to give up on OpenERP. :0 | 21:20 |
| bkuhn | In the for-profit world, a bookkeeper would never even THINK of generating an unaccrued invoice. | 21:20 |
| bkuhn | In non-profits, we do it all the time.:) | 21:20 |
| pokoli | bkuhn: definitly you have no paticience :D | 21:20 |
| bkuhn | two days to make a patch to do something that simple? | 21:21 |
| bkuhn | That was pretty patient, IMO> | 21:21 |
| pokoli | bkuhn: what do you mean accrued? Posting it to accouting? | 21:21 |
| joar | counted as an asset | 21:21 |
| joar | or income | 21:21 |
| bkuhn | joar: accruals aren't assets. | 21:21 |
| bkuhn | They are receivables | 21:21 |
| joar | oh | 21:21 |
| pokoli | I understand, you mean creating account moves for the invoice. | 21:22 |
| bkuhn | well | 21:23 |
| joar | shouldn't have tried to be so specific. AFAIK to count something as accrued means that even if you have not received any ~money from the other party, you count it as yours. | 21:23 |
| bkuhn | actually they are assets | 21:23 |
| bkuhn | :) | 21:23 |
| bkuhn | sorry I misspoke | 21:23 |
| bkuhn | they are a specific type of asset, called receivables | 21:23 |
| bkuhn | but | 21:23 |
| bkuhn | accruals can also be liabilities... those are payables | 21:23 |
| joar | accrued expenses | 21:23 |
| bkuhn | right. | 21:23 |
| joar | vs. accrued income | 21:24 |
| bkuhn | usually you balance an accrued receivable against an income account, and an accrued payable against an expense account. | 21:24 |
| bkuhn | then, when paid, you balance the accrued receivable/payable against an asset account, either positive or negative depending on which it is | 21:24 |
| joar | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accrual explains it pretty good, I think. | 21:24 |
| joar | bkuhn: I didn't know that, but that makes perfect sense. | 21:25 |
| bkuhn | yes, that is better than my explanation. | 21:25 |
| bkuhn | The wikipedia accounting entries are actually quite good. | 21:25 |
| joar | re: the double transactions | 21:25 |
| pokoli | and OpenERP doesn't allow it??? It sounds strange to me | 21:26 |
| bkuhn | pokoli: It didn't when I tried it in 2008, anyway | 21:27 |
| pokoli | bkuhn: aha in 2008. I think that it allows it now | 21:28 |
| bkuhn | pokoli: maybe not, as I said, no one in "for profit world" would ever consider generating an invoice without accruing it. | 21:28 |
| pokoli | bkuhn: i agreee | 21:28 |
| bkuhn | If openERP has never been deployed at a non-profit, I'm sure they'd never consider allowing that. | 21:28 |
| bkuhn | b/c they'd think it violates GAAP (or non-USA equivalents) | 21:28 |
| pokoli | the company i work for is migration from OpenERP to Tryton, we were OpenERP partners and now we are active contributors on Tryton comunity | 21:29 |
| pokoli | bkuhn: and for migrations (I told you it before), OpenERP doesn't support migrations from versions, so you have to pay for upgrading from version 6 to 7, then from 7 to 8 | 21:30 |
| pokoli | bkuhn: there is community plan to support migrations, but i don't know in which status it is | 21:31 |
| pokoli | I'm gooing to have lunch! Be right back :) | 21:31 |
| bkuhn | pokoli: That sounds really bad. Does Tryton have the same problem? | 21:31 |
| pokoli | bkuhn: the acruding problem? | 21:31 |
| bkuhn | No | 21:34 |
| bkuhn | The migration problem. | 21:34 |
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| bkuhn | pokoli: ^ | 21:50 |
| pokoli | bkuhn: no, i have pointed on the wiki that The migration is fully supported | 22:11 |
| pokoli | bkuhn: you must run a process to update the database, but is fully supported | 22:11 |
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