Wednesday, 2013-10-30

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paroneayeajoar: I definitely share your preference01:12
paroneayeasince I'm not sure the bindings are well written for ledger though I wonder if a wrapper library that uses suboptimal code now which can be improved later might be the best though :)01:12
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paroneayeajoar: anyway, I trust you/bkuhn to make the right calls, hope I don't sound like I'm pushing anything02:24
paroneayeafully aware I'm commentary from the peanut gallery02:24
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joarOpenERP seems promising, I just need to navigate launchpad16:02
joartrying to find the source code16:02
bkuhnjoar: I'm dubious about openERP myself.16:06
bkuhnI tried it for use for Conservancy for three months once back in 2008 (before I solidifed on Ledger)16:07
bkuhnit was highly problematic16:07
bkuhnfor various reasons.16:07
bkuhnjoar: Also, it's a proprietary relicensed codebase.16:07
bkuhnI think if we were to go with OpenERP, we'd want to prefer Tryton, which is a fork of OpenERP16:07
joartheir codebase seems GPL, but it's hard to get an overview16:09
joarI'll look into it16:09
bkuhnjoar: I think you'll find it's completely copyrighted by one entity.16:15
bkuhnand they require copyright assignment on patches, IIRC16:15
joarbkuhn: I'll quote this discussion in the article and move on to tryton.17:01
bkuhnjoar: please note that it's entirely possible OpenERP changed their policies at some point.  It's unlikely, but it's possible.17:02
joarI've been trying to find out details17:02
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joarasked in the #openobject channel, no reply this far17:02
joarI'll include your disclaimer17:02
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joarK-lined? that's drastic17:06
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joarTryton looks promising19:55
bkuhnjoar: what about it looks that way?20:06
joarIt's well-documented, written in python, modular20:07
joarit also has a server-client setup20:07
bkuhnOk.  One of the ideas I had was that perhaps the Ledger stuff could be used as a storage engine for some other existing UI code.20:08
bkuhnMight Tryton be adaptable in that way do you think?20:08
joarIt depends20:08
joarI've got to look at the transport protocol used for server-client communication in tryton20:08
joarmy initial judgement is that it might be cumbersome20:09
joarbkuhn: I think that it might be easier than that20:18
bkuhnjoar: Anyway, the main problems I had with OpenERP related to specific UseCases that I will write up.20:18
bkuhnAnd we can see if those UseCases have gotten better20:18
joarbkuhn: Yeah20:18
bkuhnI'm somewhat targeting this weekend to sprint through and write up my use cases and to finish documenting Conservancy's Ledger CLI setup20:19
joarinfrastructure-wise, tryton looks like a solid bunch.20:19
bkuhnI was skeptical about them when they got started.20:19
bkuhnThey forked out of anger at OpenERP.... forks made out of anger often fail.20:20
bkuhnbut they've been going for years now.20:20
bkuhncommunity seems healthy, diverse, etc?20:20
joarIRC channel seems friendly20:22
joarcommit peaks every 6 months20:26
joarthat's odd20:26
bkuhnjoar: maybe that's a merge they do of OpenERP.20:28
bkuhnFunny thing about projects like this:20:28
bkuhnOpenERP won't take their code likely b/c of copyright assignment requirement (for proprietary relicensing)20:29
bkuhnbut they can take all openERP's code20:29
bkuhnIt's a cool outcome really20:30
bkuhnBut if that's really what's happening, it means they probably don't do much coding themselves?20:31
joarthere's a lot of commits from, which I suspect is cedk in the #tryton channel.20:32
bkuhncedk is the one I talked to about the fork.20:32
joarTryton has a release cycle of 6 months20:33
bkuhnAnd about fixing their copyright notices after their fork.20:33
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pokolijoar: could I ask you in which phase is the conservancy project?21:01
joarpokoli: It's in the evaluation phase21:04
joarand we'll probably be evaluating 1-2 weeks further AFAICT (bkuhn?)21:05
pokolijoar: I'm wondering why you don't have erpnext21:05
bkuhnpokoli: we don't have it listed because you haven't added it to the Wiki yet. :)21:06
joarpokoli: I was not aware of it before :)21:06
bkuhnIt seems to be designed for manufacturing  though... few non-profits do that. :)21:07
pokolibkuhn: just added that :)21:08
bkuhnAlso, is a rather odd thing to have on a Free Software project's website.21:08
pokoliI must say i prefer tryton, but it's an option to have in mind. I have not explored it so much, so would be great if you can review it :)21:08
bkuhnIs there a site for the Free Software project itself (unrelated to the for-profit company that released it)?21:08
pokolibkuhn: I don't know. Maybe the github page21:10
bkuhnhrm, it's not a good sign of a Free Software project if the company and the project are that far intertwined.21:10
bkuhnOpenERP of course has the same problem.21:10
bkuhn(and probably worse problems as well :)21:10
pokolibkuhn: do you know about OpenERP migrations'21:11
pokolibkuhn: I image you droped OpenBravo for its license, didn't you?21:11
bkuhnpokoli: I don't think we "dropped" anything yet.21:12
bkuhnIn fact, I haven't gone through my old emails and merged that into the wiki yet, even.21:12
joarI have dropped some applications I found in the wikipedia listing initially because they didn't support double-entry or were personal use applications21:13
joaror didn't support accounting at all21:13
pokolijoar: did you have a look on ???21:13
joar(general ledger accounting)21:13
bkuhnI can't even easily find on OpenBravo's website where the Free Software project is.21:13
joarpokoli: I've mainly looked at the Accounting software listing.21:13
bkuhnjoar: I started clicking on that.21:14
bkuhnIt started asking me questions21:14
bkuhnI frankly have no patience if I can't get to a clone URL in a matter of 30 seconds on a website, it's a really really bad sign.21:14
bkuhnI mean, it really is.21:15
bkuhnit shows clearly that the project *isn't* interested in developer engagement.21:15
bkuhnI don't mind if it's relegated to a "For developers" link21:15
bkuhnI clicked on:21:15
joarYes, trying to find anything other than promotional material on that page was hard.21:15
bkuhnThen got:
bkuhnthen I chose "I want to be involved as a developer"21:15
bkuhnThen I got:
bkuhnwhich is asking me more silly questions21:15
bkuhnI've told it: I AM A DEVELOPER21:16
bkuhnonce the website knows that  a clone URL should be obvious to find21:16
bkuhnAgain, I don't mind if the developer link is hidden.21:16
pokolibkuhn: openbravo has closed modules21:16
pokoliis like double licence on the ERP21:16
bkuhnpokoli: well, perhaps it's forkable.  What's the main license?21:16
joarand that wiki page has all the links in itself21:16
bkuhnpokoli: I think you mean proprietary relicensing21:16
bkuhnjoar: you have more patience to me.21:16
bkuhns/to me/than me/ :)21:16
joarit's basically saying "we're open-source, but don't use the open source, pay us."21:17
pokolijoar: I think it's good to have a look on ERP software, as ERP normally involve accounting :D21:17
joarit's dark design patterns all over the place21:17
bkuhnpokoli is probably right about looking at ERP, although I've found many times, ERP systems have an accounting module almost as an afterthought.21:17
bkuhnFor example, when I first used OpenERP, I just wanted to do accounting to start.21:17
pokolibkuhn: its a custom license, from wikipedia: 1.^ The Openbravo Public License (OBPL) is based on the Mozilla Public License (MPL).[1]21:17
bkuhnit didn't want to let me.21:17
bkuhnpokoli: oh, if it's not on FSF's Free Software license list, and on OSI's approved list, we will definitely reject it.21:18
pokolibkuhn: because OpenERP is not as modular as you would21:18
pokolibkuhn: it tries to integrate all the process21:18
bkuhnYeah, that's a huge problem.21:19
bkuhnI'm not against integration.21:19
bkuhnBut here's a classic use case (which I will write up):21:19
bkuhnFor a non-profit, it's *VERY* common to generate an invoice that may not get paid.21:19
bkuhnUnder GAAP accounting rules, you can't accrue that, because you don't have a good-faith belief it will be paid.21:19
bkuhnyou have to generate an invoice that never gets accrued21:19
bkuhnOpenERP would NOT let me do that21:19
bkuhnit outright refused21:19
bkuhnI started working on a patch to have it let me do that.21:19
bkuhnTwo days later, I decided to give up on OpenERP. :021:20
bkuhnIn the for-profit world, a bookkeeper would never even THINK of generating an unaccrued invoice.21:20
bkuhnIn non-profits, we do it all the time.:)21:20
pokolibkuhn: definitly you have no paticience :D21:20
bkuhntwo days to make  a patch to do something that simple?21:21
bkuhnThat was pretty patient, IMO>21:21
pokolibkuhn: what do you mean accrued? Posting it to accouting?21:21
joarcounted as an asset21:21
joaror income21:21
bkuhnjoar: accruals aren't assets.21:21
bkuhnThey are receivables21:21
pokoliI understand, you mean creating account moves for the invoice.21:22
joarshouldn't have tried to be so specific. AFAIK to count something as accrued means that even if you have not received any ~money from the other party, you count it as yours.21:23
bkuhnactually they are assets21:23
bkuhnsorry I misspoke21:23
bkuhnthey are a specific type of asset, called receivables21:23
bkuhnaccruals can also be liabilities... those are payables21:23
joaraccrued expenses21:23
joarvs. accrued income21:24
bkuhnusually you balance an accrued receivable against an income account, and an accrued payable against an expense account.21:24
bkuhnthen, when paid, you balance the accrued receivable/payable against an asset account, either positive or negative depending on which it is21:24
joar explains it pretty good, I think.21:24
joarbkuhn: I didn't know that, but that makes perfect sense.21:25
bkuhnyes, that is better than my explanation.21:25
bkuhnThe wikipedia accounting entries are actually quite good.21:25
joarre: the double transactions21:25
pokoliand OpenERP doesn't allow it??? It sounds strange to me21:26
bkuhnpokoli: It didn't when I tried it in 2008, anyway21:27
pokolibkuhn: aha in 2008. I think that it allows it now21:28
bkuhnpokoli: maybe not, as I said, no one in "for profit world" would ever consider generating an invoice without accruing it.21:28
pokolibkuhn: i agreee21:28
bkuhnIf openERP has never been deployed at a non-profit, I'm sure they'd never consider allowing that.21:28
bkuhnb/c they'd think it violates GAAP (or non-USA equivalents)21:28
pokolithe company i work for is migration from OpenERP to Tryton, we were OpenERP partners and now we are active contributors on Tryton comunity21:29
pokolibkuhn: and for migrations (I told you  it before), OpenERP doesn't support migrations from versions, so you have to pay for upgrading from version 6 to 7, then from 7 to 821:30
pokolibkuhn: there is community plan to support migrations, but i don't know in which status it is21:31
pokoliI'm gooing to have lunch! Be right back :)21:31
bkuhnpokoli: That sounds really bad.  Does Tryton have the same problem?21:31
pokolibkuhn: the acruding problem?21:31
bkuhnThe migration problem.21:34
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bkuhnpokoli: ^21:50
pokolibkuhn: no, i have pointed on the wiki that The migration is fully supported22:11
pokolibkuhn: you must run a process to update the database, but is fully supported22:11
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