Wednesday, 2013-11-13

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joarhello bkuhn!14:25
bkuhnWe should get started.14:25
bkuhnI need to write more UseCases.14:25
bkuhnI think that's the right place14:25
bkuhn... for me to get started.14:25
joarI was just going to post my contract to you14:25
joarit'll take 15 minutes14:26
joarit took a little longer than expected. I'm back now15:10
bkuhnNo problem.15:20
joarbkuhn: all right, you will continue with usecases as far as i understand?15:29
bkuhnYeah, let me spend an hour or two writing them up.15:30
bkuhnjoar: if you feel like looking at what I'm adding in real time and updating the evaluation pages based on the use cases I'm writing, that would be good...15:31
bkuhn ... but perhaps that's too 'real time' and confusing. :)15:31
joarlet's try15:31
bkuhnOk, I just added two new use casees.15:33
joarcurrently questioning OpenPetra people re: FundAccounting and technical15:41
bkuhnI think for a lot of these, though, we're going to have to look at the code ourselves.15:44
joarthe OpenPetra people have been very helpful15:54
joarAs have the Tryton folks, pokoli in particular15:54
pokolijoar: ping me when needed :)15:56
joarpokoli: :)15:56
bkuhnjoar: Something I'd really like to do is attempt to install each of these packages and try out some things with them.16:19
joarbkuhn: Yes, I think that will be a later step16:20
bkuhnI don't want to muddy oak (the server) with install attempts, though....16:20
bkuhn .... should I spin up a VM for this purpose?16:20
joarI think a VM would be the cleanest16:20
bkuhnyeah, ok, I'll spin one up in a few.  I'm use-case-writing-sprinting right now. :)16:22
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joarI'm spinning up an lxc container to try out openpetra17:20
bkuhnjelmer: welcome!17:21
bkuhnjoar: oh, ok, would a new VM be easier?  I've not spun one up yet.17:21
bkuhnbut can do so now.17:21
joarbkuhn: on gandi?17:21
bkuhnjoar: yes, that's probably easiest.  Rackspace is also an option (recently they donated FaiP services to Conservancy too, like Gandi)17:22
joarI'm using docker locally, since I'll need X17:22
joarso I'm happy with what I've got at the moment :)17:22
bkuhnoh, good point, I forgot that some of these are X-based applications.17:22
bkuhnjoar: it'd be great if I could try these out too17:23
joarmy only concern is that I'm running out of disk space17:23
joarbkuhn: absolutely, do you know how lxc-docker works?17:23
joarI could publish a small guide to getting it up and running17:23
bkuhnNo, I generally use qemu-based VMs17:23
bkuhn... but if you're making these, then I'll learn.17:23
bkuhn... how to use lxc-doker17:24
bkuhnAll things being equal, I'd probably just install these in a chroot17:26
jelmerbkuhn: Thanks!17:27
jelmerhi joar, bkuhn17:28
bkuhnjoar: Jelmer is a contributor the Samba project, which is a Conservancy member.  I bet Jelmer has useful thoughts on the second part of this use case that I just wrote:
joaris a transaction to Accounts Payable registered as credit or debit?17:56
bkuhnSo, I'm bad at this stuff... in the sense that I get confused what accounts call a credit or a debit.18:05
bkuhnWhat I can say is that Accounts Payable usually starts as negative, and then has a positive transaction later.18:05
bkuhnI guess that means it's a debit, then a credit.18:06
bkuhnbut I've sometimes had situations where accountants call something positive (numerically) a debit... so I avoid those terms ultimately because I get confused.18:06
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joarok, openpetra source downloaded, going to try it out now18:29
joarI was actually thinking of vagrant all the time I said docker19:02
bkuhnjoar: is it possible for you to ship me the VMs or equivalents that have the running systems in them?19:09
joardo you run 64bit?19:10
joarbkuhn: which distro do you run?19:11
bkuhnAnd yes, I'm 64 bit19:11
bkuhnWe are compatible.19:11
joarI'm on Ubuntu because I like their release schedule, but I think I can make this work.19:12
joarwe're mostly compatible at least :)19:12
joarI'm creating an lxc instance now19:13
joarwe'll see if I can ship that, otherwise I should be able to create a virtualbox file19:13
joaror qemu/kvm19:13
bkuhnI've used qemu most.  I did a few things with kvm19:18
bkuhnI've never used VirtualBox.19:18
bkuhnjoar: Meanwhile, when you have a chance, could you read and let me know your thoughts.19:19
joarvagrant abstracts away the underlying virtualization technique19:19
jelmerbkuhn: Apparently the experience with OpenERP scared my friends enough that they didn't try Tryton.19:29
bkuhnjelmer: Well, I know briefly about the history and I know that the Tryton developers had scary experiences with OpenERP such that it led them to fork.  (pokoli is a Tryton developer, BTW.)19:29
bkuhnjelmer: did your friends believe the problems with OpenERP would "spill" into Tryton in some way?19:30
bkuhnor just that they gave up.19:30
bkuhn(FWIW, I evaluated OpenERP in 2008 before choosing the Ledger-CLI-based system I ended up putting together for Conservancy.  Tryton fork was literally just getting started at the time)19:30
jelmerThe one that gave up went to something homebuilt and specific to their org.19:30
jelmerThis was also a couple of years ago.19:31
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*** bkuhnIdle is now known as bkuhn21:00
joarsuspended my efforts with vagrant21:27
joarI almost got it up and running21:27
bkuhnjoar: ok, is that definitely the best way to try these things out?21:27
joarand then I found a bug that wouldn't let me through, and the #openpetra devs are away at the moment21:28
bkuhn(I mean, would chroots work?)21:28
joarthe bug wasn't in vagrant but in the application21:28
joaranother idea would be to try the standalone exe through wine or mono21:28
joarstandalone intaller through wine asked for me to install .NET 4.021:31
joarI'm pretty exhausted by this21:31
joarand thank you bkuhn for writing up all the use cases21:33
bkuhnWell,  I haven't "WRITE ALL THE  USE CASES" yet (to use a meme)21:34
bkuhnI have a few more to write.21:34
bkuhnBut, I've written the major ones, I think.21:34
bkuhnI want to write the public support test in particular.21:34
joarI meant that as in "all of those use cases you have written today"21:35
bkuhnYeah, I figured.  :)21:35
bkuhn... because I think the public support test exemplifies why we need what I called the ReadAPI21:35
joarI'm looking at the currency use case now21:35
bkuhnIn other words, there are complex, specialized reporting scenarios that come up that the original software developers can't anticipate.21:35
bkuhnjoar: Yes, I'm curious if you grok that multicurrency one... I had trouble explaining what I was thinking there.21:36
joarI really wish Markdown would support footnotes21:37
bkuhnjoar: (me too)21:37
bkuhnjoar: meanwhile, Does OpenPetra offer a VM to try or anything like that?21:37
joarI don't think so21:37
joarweb searches return nothing21:38
bkuhnjoar: what's the clone URL for OpenPetra?21:39
joarbzr branch lp:openpetraorg21:39
* bkuhn branches21:43
joarit may take up to 40 minutes21:44
joarbkuhn: yeah, I think I grok the currency example21:47
bkuhn(re: branch of openpetra ... Probably more time for me, I have very little bandwidth)_21:48
bkuhnwhy is it so big?21:48
joarhistorical reasons I believe21:48
bkuhnjoar: (re currency use case) that's good.21:48
joarfor me with 1.7MB download throughput it took about 40 minutes21:48
* joar brbb21:49
joarbkuhn: does npo-ledger-cli support all the reports described in the GeneratingReports use case?22:04
bkuhnjoar: Almost all of them,  I think.22:04
bkuhnI'm going to go through over the next day or so and update the npo-ledger-cli documentation and evaluate it against our use cases22:05
joarI was just on that task, but I think it might be better if you do that22:05
joarsince you know it best, and will know any eventual differences between conservancy's current system and npo-ledger-cli22:06
bkuhnYeah, I should probably do it.22:13
bkuhnFeel free to look at any of the other systems and evaluate them against any use cases written so far.22:13
bkuhnjoar: Can you think of a reason why UseCases/ReadAPI doesn't work?  Not CamelCaseyEnough?22:20
bkuhnnm, fixed it.22:22
joar   if (shorthand) notation22:33
joarelse {22:34
joar   maybe}22:34
paroneayeayikes :)22:35
joarI'm going to sign out for the day22:59
joarI sent an email to the ofbiz ML22:59
joarasking for help with assessments, since it's really hard to find information about ofbiz23:00
joarbkuhn: ^^23:01
* bkuhn reads23:12
bkuhnjoar: you'll probably see this tomorrow, but frankly, if it's hard to find information on a project, it's a good indication that we shouldn't bother with it.  Just document what we tried and move on.23:13

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